As I said here, as long as people like Fr. Longenecker, Patrick Madrid, Simcha Fisher, Steven Greydanus, and other celebrities of the Internet Catholic Apologetics world continue to give high fives to Mark Shea, who in my opinion has become nothing other than a Catholic version of Jack Chick, they have no reason to launch salvos at arbitrarily chosen targets like The Remnant.
As for the argument at hand, I'm not saying I agree with The Remnant or would always take its side. Truth be told, I don't visit there much. Who knows? Maybe everything Fr. Longenecker said about The Remnant, how it compares to the worst stereotypes of Protestant Fundamentalism, and why it's a problem, is spot on accurate.
My issue is that many of the same complaints could be said about Mark Shea. I don't mean these people have to call out Mark if they are good friends and buddies. Though truth be told, if I was Mark's friend or buddy, I'd do everything in the world to call him out to stop and change what he has become. That's up to them.
But can they please stop running around denouncing Trump here, and Rad Trads there, and over there the dreaded Fundamentalists? Almost nothing they say about those individuals or expressions of Christianity couldn't easily be said about Mark and so many of his followers. If they aren't going to call out Mark, then they should keep silent about the subject altogether. If, however, they feel compelled to step forward and offer what they feel is just criticism, that's fair. But make sure it's done across the board and includes all - and I mean ALL - noteworthy examples.
Otherwise, they themselves could become guilty of one of the things they are quick to condemn various 'fundamentalists' for, and that's cherry picking the truth at hand. And nothing says 'opinion over truth' faster than cherry pickers. That's something I learned in dealing with Protestant Fundamentalists, BTW.
A few years ago a woman was caught on video walking into a fountain while paying to much attention to her smart device. Embarrassing yes, and even more so because a couple of security guards put the video on youtube. The woman had some comfort, in that the video is shot at a distance and it would be next to impossible to identify the woman. The only way she could have likely been identified was if she sued, which is of course, is what she did. Similarly, Father Longenecker doesn't id specifically who he is talking about. He just paints an ugly vivid picture. That the folks over at the Remnant, looked upon this image and decided it's was mirror and felt insulted, is their problem and not his. Mr Griffey your post suggest to me that you didn't read Father Longenecker's article.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Mark Shea goes, he is just a single man, albeit one with a big megaphone, what Father is writing about is a movement. A movement that seeks to corrupt the traditionalist movement.
Hi Andrew. I had read Fr. Longenecker’s original post before I saw The Remnant issue. I noticed he even reminded us to be careful lest we fall into some of those categories. A good point, and one that got me thinking. I thought he might need to shift his gaze a little bit to Mark, since Fr. Longenecker often gives Mark high fives. If we are going to say X is a problem, then we need to make sure we’re consistent. It doesn’t mean we can’t acknowledge when someone is right. But that’s different than uplifting someone who exemplifies the things we say are problematic. If I make it my business to say that Reality TV is a blight upon the cultural landscape and a grave evil that is compromising the values of our nation, OK (I don’t go that far, but let’s just say). But wouldn’t you scratch your head if every so often I had a post singing the praises of Duck Dynasty? Or The Bachelor? That notion came especially clear to me when Fr. Longenecker was over at Mark’s Facebook page yucking it up with Mark and the others who were thumbing their noses at The Remnant. That alone speaks volumes, which is why I posted this. I, too, spent years dealing with Protestant Fundamentalists. I know the tendencies. I also can see that we post-moderns are putting our own spins on some of those traits. So if Fr. Longenecker wants to call out fundamentalism, OK. Maybe he goes over to the Remnant and yucks it up with them on occasion when he's not singing their praises. But if not, then there is a glaring inconsistency of message. Just like the same I noticed with those trashing Trump (and I’m no Trump fan).
ReplyDeleteFirst of all I don't do Facebook, although my friends have suggested that I need to give it a try. 2ndly your point is only valid if Father Longenecker sees Mark Shea the same way that you do. I understand that the two know each other so his perspective is bound to be different. Also since he isn't naming names in either that or the new article on liberal fundamentalist Catholics then why single out Mr. Shea?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn’t advise Facebook if you don’t. The world’s a happier place without it. But regarding Fr. Longenecker and the other sources and Mark, that’s my point. Fr. Longenecker laid out a pretty hefty list of ‘this is wrong with Fundamentalism.’ Fair enough. But if it is so open to interpretation and personal perspective that Fr. Longenecker could look at a glaring example and conclude it doesn’t apply, then there is no reason to think someone couldn’t do the same with The Remnant, or any source for that matter. And if that’s the case, there is no sense saying any of it at all. Which is sort of the problem.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan of Fr. Longenecker (or the others you mentioned), but I just started reading The Remnant a few weeks ago and you're right...in this case Fr. Longenecker is spot on about those folks. I've never seen such a bunch of self-righteous, sanctimonious hypocrites in my life. And these people claim to be the "remanant" of the true Church? They positively seethe with anger and rage on a daily basis and love only themselves and those who flatter and fawn over them. Frankly, most of them sound unhinged. I was raised in the pre-Vatican II Church and consider myself a traditional Catholic. When we were confirmed, we were taught that we were soldiers of Christ and His Church. But if we ever spewed the venom that I've witnessed over at The Remnant, the good Sisters would have marched us right into the confessional. Talk about a brood of vipers! Sorry, but that bunch has it coming. They can dish it out, but they can't take it.
ReplyDeleteHi Regina. Thanks for stopping by. Again, Fr. Longenecker might be spot on regarding The Remnant. I know little about its overall catalog. My problem is, Mark Shea is nothing other than The Remnant in different garb. And for Fr. Longenecker to join in with Mark is an issue, especially when seeing clearly the problems with the Remnant. If we say X is a problem, but then give a pass to people who do X simply because, then we send mixed messages. Are we really bothered by X? Or do we simply use X as a weapon with which to bludgeon those we just done like, or don't agree with?
ReplyDeleteWell, now that I've gotten that off my chest :)
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, David, I do see what you're saying. Remember the old saw: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I think it's probably a little bit of both of what you describe...truly being bothered, mixed in with a lot of bludgeoning. Believe it or not, I do share many of the concerns of The Remnant group which is what led me there in the first place. Yet, something seemed a bit 'off', so I refrained from commenting and just kept reading. It wasn't pretty. I think the problem lies in that there shouldn't be 'sides'. There really is only Catholicism, no adjectives. The Remnant should have ignored Father's article. Instead they did just as he predicted and, yet again, had what Fr. Z describes as a "spittle-flecked nutty". They have no control over their emotions. Mark Shea and friends are no angels in all this either. It's tragic that this is what the faithful have been brought to. And here it is only a week from Holy Week. The devil must be having a field day.
I agree. From what I can tell, the arrow that Fr. Longenecker shot landed justly in the lap of The Remnant. My main concern, however, continues to be the inconsistency in standards we see from so many who are calling out these problems. That arrow hits just as rightly on the lap of Mark, who Fr. Longenecker often references and endorses. Like I tell my boys, it does me no good on the credibility scale to sit at a football game and call out rugby for being too violent.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with you. You make a good point. Like Andrew who commented earlier, I don't do Facebook, but have a pretty good idea of what goes on in the Mark Shea camp. This is where Fr. Longenecker could really make a difference, by calling him out too, although I doubt it will happen.
ReplyDeleteA blessed Easter to you and your family, David!
A blessed Easter to you and yours as well.
ReplyDelete