Monday, May 7, 2018

A confession

Monte Cassino shrine in S. Indiana, where my
journey to Rome properly began
At this point there is something I need to clarify or, more appropriately, confess.  A few readers picked up on this but I've never confirmed the point.  The reasons I didn't are personal, not because of money or fame or fortune.  After all, I get no money for this blog.   But events have transpired that make it necessary for me to come out and state that I have, in fact, entered the Orthodox Church.

It was a long time coming, and of course regular readers could probably see where it was heading.  It's not because of 'meanie Catholics on the Internet' or 'Gee, the Orthodox Church doesn't have any problems!', but a careful evaluation of the gravest threat to the orthodox Christian Faith I've seen in my lifetime, if not of all time, and the crumbling before it that is happening in the Church and among too many of its leaders - as well as the impact it had on my family, especially my sons.

One too many times I heard from my family, 'Why did we bother becoming Catholic? We could have gone Episcopalian and not lost everything.  After all, we hear one way's as good as another.'  Being in a moderate diocese, and a progressive leaning parish, in the age of Pope Francis, there simply wasn't anything I had to offer except, 'Trust me, it might look crazy right now, what with the pope and leaders and teachers and all, but there is still the exclusive Truth of the Church.'  As they began to waver in their faith walks, and general devotion dwindled, they began questioning the exclusive truth claims of the Church.  After all, it appeared to be led by individuals who no longer seemed to believe those very claims. 

It was in this context that we began searching for a different parish some time ago, and in which my wife suggested an Orthodox church mission that had opened up a few years earlier.  I wasn't happy with the idea, but our search for a more traditional place to take root was yielding lemons. We were getting to the point that we were beginning to consider a Protestant congregation.  So we visited the mission (a strange experience to be sure), and met the priest, himself a former Protestant.  His wife had been born Catholic as well, but left the Church years earlier.  They were not forceful, but were kindly, open and respectful to our struggles. About a year later my wife and a couple of my sons joined.

By last year it was clear that this was to be our new home, hence one reason I left Patheos (among many).  To be brutally honest?  I saw their spiritual walk turn a corner the longer we attended there.  No more feminist youth directors, pleas to not offend pro-choice parishioners, Church leaders with transgender children calling for acceptance, hearing nuns tell us those old superstitions went out with Vatican II, removing references to Hell from prayers during processionals lest we offend modern sensitivities, suggestions that tolerance is more important than truth, or implying it doesn't really matter since the hereafter is pretty much a shoo in.  For all the myriad problems the Orthodox have (and boy do they have them), doctrinally caving to the latest fancies is not one. They have other problems galore, but in the Antiochian tradition at least, they are steadfast, traditional and rooted in the claims and morals of the historical Faith against whatever storms head their way.  That alone has made a difference.  I suppose it has to do with being in regions where fealty to the Faith can mean life or death.

Anyway, that's the short version of how it happened.  There is a lot more to it all than that.  I probably should have been more open when I began looking that direction, or again when I left and began attending the Orthodox Church semi-regularly (though not exclusively).  I certainly should have said it when it became official.  Nonetheless, there are personal reasons I was holding out, though at this point other events have taken hold that have forced my hand, so I figured I better get it out in the open.

I do not leave the Church with middle fingers flaring, throwing barbs and darts and anathemas.  After all, I didn't do that to my Protestant brethren when I became Catholic, even if some did it to me.  Heck, I didn't do it to agnostics and secularists when I became Christian.  It's not my style.

Truth be told, some of the most impressive spiritual giants I've had the pleasure to meet are those within the walls of the Church.  I've already told our priest that in some ways I will always be a child of the Catholic soul.  Yet there are problems - serious, grave and significant problems, especially for young men (and the not so young) only starting out and looking for guidance in the historical Faith rather than the latest fad.  Those I will comment on down the road.

When I entered the Catholic Church, it was with all smiles, tears of laughter and a great joy.  As I entered the Orthodox Church, it was with a heavy heart and a feeling of sadness, even amidst the love and openness shown us by our new church home.  I still maintain one heart valve pointing back to Rome. Had we been born and bred Catholic, or surrounded by Catholics here in the home office rooted more in the traditional Faith, or have come into the Church fifteen or twenty years earlier, perhaps we could have weathered the storm and helped our boys work things out.  As it was, we saw things crumbling, their resolve wavering, and had to move.

I have no doubt the Church will survive in the long term.  My one son who is still Catholic rests his faith on that promise.  Not that he doesn't see the huge problems, especially for those new to the Faith, nor does he begrudge our decision.  As he said, we just came on board into all this.  It's tough enough for cradle Catholics trying to remain faithful.  To use a quote I once used on The Journey Home, it's a bit like getting tickets for the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.  He'll pray that the storms move on and he will be able to grow in the Faith, not despite the leadership and guidance of the day, but in some part because.   But he saw the problems, and the impact it was having, and understands the family's decision.

I'll unpack things more down the road. including the nitty-gritty of doctrinal issues and various events that brought about this unexpected journey.  Again, it wasn't a case of saying the Catholic Church has problems, I'll find one that doesn't!  That would be stupid. The Church has always had problems.  We have a New Testament, in part, because there were problems from the beginning.  It was, rather, the nature of the problems and the glaring issues they revealed, set against the issues of our surrounding community, loving though it could be, and what they did - and didn't - offer for a family of new converts.

For now, I'll  be gone for a few to fix the personal issues I mentioned.  Once that is straightened out, I'll be back to pick up on things.  There likely won't be a single treatise on 'why I left', but I will mention or point out issues as I move forward and go in whatever directions life and interests take me.

In the meantime, my apologies for not being forthright sooner.  I will still visit those remaining sites I have come to enjoy and receive edification from, but now it will be from one looking to a reconciliation between both ancient traditions I have come to cherish. 

Hoping this does not cause a rift or hard feelings from those who I have come to admire, respect and appreciate who remain in fellowship with the Church,

Dave

60 comments:

  1. The orthodox option is compelling to me right now. It seems like the orthodox appear to feel much more bound by the historical understanding of the faith than the Roman Catholic Church has of late. I get your decision. Maybe keep a spot in your liturgy for the rest of us?

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    1. I think it's because only recently the Orthodox have come out from under varying degrees of persecution and oppression. There is still some, primarily in the Islamic world. But they still remember the right and wrong of how they endured centuries of being under someone else's thumbs, and seem rather slow to just jump on the latest bandwagon. But definitely keeping the prayers for everyone going through the modern tribulation.

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  2. It's unfortunate you were unable to encounter an Anglican Ordinariate or TLM-based parish. God speed & in my hopeful spirit that you return to Mother Church.

    :)

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    1. I've been there a dozen times if I've been there once. I'm praying. Of course reconciling the two traditions would be the best, but that's outside of this little hobbit's potential. For now, just praying that things settle and the boys, with their refound devotions, can find their way together with their brother.

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    1. Robert, I'm sorry! I meant to respond and hit delete instead! Your post was just fine. My apologies. Your question was if I had visited St. Patrick's in downtown Columbus. Yes, we had visited there a few times. There were some other parishes in Columbus that were quite fine, but alas, far, far away from us. And though it was something we could point to in order to say this isn't all of the Faith, there is nothing to replace a parish that you become involved in, raise the kids in, take part in regularly, and get the kids involved in youth and other ministries in. St. Patrick's was just too far for regular involvement. In fact, in a bizarre way, when we did have the chance to attend a more traditional parish (sometimes while away from home), it only set in contrast the glaring problems with things as a whole. And of course, as presented, such churches were seen as somehow behind the times needing to get with the program, rather than bulwarks of faithfulness.

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    2. I understand the distance factor, especially with children Saint Patrick is where I go and I live in Canal Winchester. I have noticed that there seem to be parishioners from as far away as Zanesville and Washington Court House

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    3. Yeah, it was the kids that were the mischief. We had actually traveled as far as Mansfield, and down into S. Columbus. As I said, we'd stopped by St. Patrick's more than once. It was getting and keeping the kids involved, and yet what they were exposed to both locally and externally, from news and such. Finding a place we could attend was one thing. Ironically, we were coming to the point of not wanting them involved, given what they were coming home with.

      As a pastor, I used to tell the congregations that people should come closer to God because of the church, not despite it. Yet that is what was happening. For my oldest, who was more grounded when we became Catholic, it wasn't as tough (though not without its struggles. At one point he contemplated going back Protestant). But the next two were so young, they didn't have that same deep rooting, and were beginning to fade. That, among other issues, was what prodded us into action.

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    4. I live in the Columbus area as well. What part of Central Ohio do you live in?

      My wife and I used to attend St. Patrick, and I completely understand your concerns about being too far away to participate in parish life. We drove from Pickerington to go to St. Patrick, and loved the church and the Dominican priests, but we couldn't actually do much besides go to Sunday mass because of the distance. We also aren't homeschoolers, so we felt it was even harder to get involved with parish life. It seems like most of the people who are most involved at St. Patrick are homeschooling families and older folks who don't mind the commute.

      In regards to your comment about Columbus being a "moderate diocese" - perhaps my experience is different from yours. I moved to Columbus from Lexington, KY, and compared to Lexington, Columbus might as well be Lincoln NE. Not every church in the Columbus area has altar rails like St. Patrick, but many of the churches do at least feature traditional elements (traditional architecture, hymns, eucharistic adoration, etc.). The young priests in the diocese that I've interacted with have been outstanding, and we are fortunate to have a good number of them, and a good number of vocations.

      Of course, not everyone has the same experience. What parish were you involved in? I'm curious to hear more specifically your experience of the diocese are parishes you've visited.

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    5. St. Patrick is a wonderful parish. And I know there are others. Don't get me wrong, there are many wonderful individuals in our own parish. Unfortunately, as my boys pointed out, there are also wonderful individuals who don't have a parish, or a church, or a religion. We definitely were more progressive. As for the diocese, I found it was that brand of modern Catholic 'almost always except never sometimes'. So I know the bishop went to the mattresses over that school teacher a few years ago. And yet when a speaker was invited to come to our parish, a speaker who openly advocated for more liberal interpretations of sexuality, gay marriage and reproductive health (that is, abortion), when some protested and went to the diocese, the speaker was given a thumbs up. Of course it also split the parish and the priest ended up leaving shortly thereafter. But as I said, it was no single issue except to say it felt as if the Church was ceding the premises of a Christian model of Creation, even while holding onto this or the doctrine. Though in recent years, we've begun to see more and more of those doctrines being challenged.

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  4. Just out of curiosity, did you investigate the Eastern Catholic Church?

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    1. We actually looked at that quite awhile before coming into the Catholic Church. I had begun looking at the Church in the late 90s (seriously looking, I had always had a certain casual like for the Catholic Church, even as an agnostic). But in the late 90s I began looking seriously in that direction. Nonetheless, to cover all bases, as we made the move out of Protestantism, we spent some years looking at a variety of Protestant traditions, as well as both Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy.

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    2. You mentioned you wish you could reconcile both traditions. As you may already know, Eastern Catholics consider themselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” There are two Byzantine Catholic Churches that I know of in the Columbus area. One Melkite, the other Ruthenian.

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    3. Yeah. We had actually found the one on Cleveland (iirc) back when we were still Protestant. That's a long story in and of itself. Those are the things I'll touch on as I move forward in a sort of 'huh, why?' series.

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  5. Dave, I got chills reading this as I am currently considering the Orthodox Church as well, for much of the same issues you've mentioned. I've just begun exploring the doctrinal differences between East and West. But right now I feel caught in some dense dark forest between two lit cities, one nearby that no longer feels like home, and the other seeming so far distant, yet somehow encouraging. Looking forward to your "unpacking" with much interest.

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    1. Who are you looking at in regards to the EOC? I've enjoyed Andrew Stephen Damack. [sp?]

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    2. Right now I'm working my way through some books by Ware, Schmemann, Papvasiliou [sp? these surnames can be tough]. Still at the toe in the water phase, but the interest is there. I will check out Fr. Damick, thanks.

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    3. I get you. There is still a 'distant' feel, though I acknowledge the beauty and richness of the Divine Liturgy. Sometimes I slip back to the Mass with my son, using the excuse that I don't want him to be alone. But there is a solidness there that ultimately drew us in. Finding 'Orthodox in a nutshell' books isn't easy, but Ware's works are a great place to start.

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    4. Anon, and thank you for your recommendations.

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  6. The tale of Church history. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...
    I think one can say that in almost any age, even going back to ancient Israel.
    Is the grass greener on the other side?...Let us know.
    And then... will it stay greener as the years roll along.
    God bless.

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    1. Yeah, that's about it. Sometimes I think it's like a carousel and when you jump on that can make the difference. As I said, I think had we come in 20 years earlier (a neat trick, I was still agnostic then, and not married), it might have been different.

      I don't think the grass is greener on the Orthodox side, it's just greener in patches. It just so happens, however, that the patches that are green are crucial, esp. for what our boys had been through.

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  7. I hope that you can reconcile the "Orthodox" with its violence, physical and emotional/mental cruelty towards LGBT ( do those people ever get excommunicated by any Orthodox Church?) as well as being a home for advocates of White Supremacy ! I as a BLACK American Woman experienced it myself in San Francisco, along with the few Blacks who went to the Rocor and Platina nearly 40 years ago-( you can't IMAGINE how it felt to be told to your face by your 20 year old peers at the Cathedral that your African blood was too impure to mix with the pure blood of the Russians!)
    But like most Whites that will not bother you! I was swayed by the incense,gilt and the gold, but I know better now not to let artificial outer adornments move me.

    As for me, at 62 I will continue as I have done since 2011 to unapologetically pro LGBT, pro feminism, pro choice none of that fetal idolatry for ME and anti Christofascist. Praying for regime changes in 2018!

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    1. "you can't IMAGINE how it felt to be told to your face by your 20 year old peers at the Cathedral that your African blood was too impure to mix with the pure blood of the Russians!"

      No, but I imagine it's a bit like being told that you wouldn't be bothered by someone's plight based solely on the color of your skin.

      Our church, FWIW, is Antiochian. It's out of the Middle East, and the lion's share of parishioners are from the Middle East - and would be quite shocked at the suggestion that they're white supremacists.

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    2. "And then everybody clapped."

      You're Claudia V on Shea's blog aren't you?

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  8. i have been Orthodox for 36 years now. I was raised in the 50's & just drifted away from the Catholic church as it changed so completely in the 60s. I was invited to an Orthodox Saturday evening Vespers in a Russian style church and was basically knocked off my feet by what I found there. I struggled with a lot of guilt about leaving the R.C. church for quite a while, but recovered and am now in my 70's . I remain in a Russian Orthodox style church, although we "English " have a convert priest and a fair number of converts from R.C. and Protestant church and have our own Liturgy in English before the Slavonic service, but all are welcome at either service .
    Our church was built as an Orthodox Church in Winnipeg, Canada over 100 years ago.

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    1. I've not been to a Russian Orthodox Church. I wonder if yours is what they call "Western Rite". There are none of those in our area. I hear they can be a little easier to grapple with for those of us from the kindly West.

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    2. no David - we are Eastern Rite. There are a few differences between the way things are done, though,
      between the Slavonic and the English in our church.
      The Slavs are expected to go to confession in the few days before receiving The Eucharist at the Divine Liturgy and preferably that morning. The English priest says once a month for us. My spiritual father (who is a monk) is also a Canadian convert to Orthodoxy from nothing really and serves in another Russian language church. he is a celibate obviously - I think all the other orthodox priests in town are married with families.
      He also tells me at least once a month for Confession, but I know most of his people confess before receiving the Eucharist
      After the wonder of the Eastern Rite , I find Western rite Orthodox churches - while valid, nothing I would be interested in attending unless I had no other option.

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  9. From what you are saying, your Catholic parish was gravely heretical, and while you could have hunkered down and pulled through, your family might not have... I understand this must have seemed like an impossible position. I hope that you will keep the Catholic faith though, i.e. remember that the Pope is Christ’s vicar, that Purgatory is real, etc., and that if the situation in your local Catholic community improves you will come back. It really is Christ’s Church, even though she is gravely wounded.

    Also, sometimes God wants people to hunker down, and then gives them the grace to endure the unendurable, so that they will be the seed for his future plans... I know of a Trappist monk whose whole community became modernist and ostracized him for years. But as the times changed, the new vocations began to come to him for nourishment which they realized the other brothers could not give, and eventually they formed a new monastery which today has 80 monks and is planting daughter monasteries. Without his years (decades) of endurance, the Trappist tradition would have died in his part of the world, and yet today it is flourishing. Many families are playing such a role in parishes all over the west...In any case, I will be praying for you.

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    1. I wouldn't say the parish was heretical as much as it entertained anything for the sake of 'getting along.' It even allowed for the odd traditionalist. But it was the boys and their wavering that prompted us. We tried to hunker down, but you might say it was 'the perfect storm' that was seeing their faith more or less be abandoned. Times being what they are, we held off even as it seemed the Church piled more and more obstacles in the path. It's not as if the Orthodox don't have many of the same problems that all faith traditions have in the wake of the modern assaults on traditional religious belief. But somehow, and it's tough to nail down, the Church felt as if it was ceding the Christian template. It wasn't simply a case of compromise here, there, and somewhere else. It was as if it was now following along. For all the problems the Orthodox have, their is a steadfastness that is missing in the Church (except, from our experience, in those from places like Africa and parts of Asia).

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    2. I can’t imagine how hard it is to raise a christian family in America today... I live in France, and while it is much more secular, the anti-religious elements in the culture seem much less aggressive.

      Though the Church will not fail. Scripture and Tradition are clear on this point. It might come very close to doing so - as it has many times in the past - but it simply cannot compromise its teaching authority. Though I guess that only becomes easily apparent once a crisis is over.

      I can’t help but wonder if your impression is not amplified by the US Catholic media... Several writers and journalists have developped a habit of making strident and paranoid commentary on almost anything coming out of the Vatican... I read their comments sections especially in disbelief.

      But looking through Pope Francis’ encyclicals and apostolic exhortations, it’s pretty clear that the Holy Spirit is doing his job. God is also raising powerful voices among the Cardinals and Bishops to make sure that those teaching heresy don’t get too much influence. God did not promise a great many things to the Church, but regarding what he did promise we can be at peace.

      One of the great messages of the Bible and the saints is fear not, trust in God, do not worry. Yet it is often just this that we refuse to do. And it throws a wrench into the plans he is working around us...

      Anyways, conversion is a great mystery, but I hope you will not loose sight of the place the Catholic Church has in God’s plan.

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    3. I hear things are different in Europe, but it was, as I said, a sort of 'perfect storm.' It didn't just begin with 'Pope Francis', though that didn't change the trajectory. It was a combo of the Church, at least for the season, breaking before the waves of modernity, combined with a shift in its attitude about converts (Protestant clergy or otherwise), combined with the fact that a number of issues were thrown upside down near home, giving almost nowhere to point the boys to that didn't say 'that was yesterday's Christian Faith.' Given our lives, how we came in, and their particular ages, it simply devastated. It didn't do much for the rest of us, and my wife in particular began to waver. We were actually at the point of going back Protestant, if only to hear a reminder that some still believe the historical Faith is valid and good, and actually see such witnesses face to face.

      But as I also said, I'll not shun the Church nor beat up on it - though I may at times point out specific instances and issues.

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  10. Best wishes on your faith journey.

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  11. I think you are making a mistake. The grass always looks greener. It would be better to drive a long distance to find a better parish and home school your kids. You will find that Orthodoxy has the same issues and you cannot escape. I understand your frustration, I'm a convert myself. But do not jump ship. I hope you will return to the Catholic Church.

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    1. I understand what you're saying, but as I said, it was more than just one issue. The fact is right now, the Church is - at best - on defensive mode. At worst, it seems to be caving, even to the point of creating confusion about basic, fundamental doctrines. For all the myriad problems in Orthodoxy, it is rather stalwart about the basics.

      Simply showing up at a good parish more than an hour away once a week wouldn't be enough to counter what my boys were picking up directly from the Church and its leaders. Having lost everything to become Catholic, it makes more sense to them to hear the Orthodox priest say 'this is Truth, and we need it for our salvation' than it does 'Ah, go ahead, get to God your own way, the important thing is openness and tolerance.'

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    2. Thus far no doctrine has changed. Yes Francis is a problem, but has not done anything that can't be dealt with. Many Catholics in early America did not have access to Mass very often. Perhaps only a few times a year. They raised their children, catechized them, prayed the rosary,and kept the faith. They had it worse then us. Teach your kids from the catechism and ignore Francis. The home is the domestic church. All of this will pass. Go to Mass at a decent parish when you can. Write the pastor and bishop and tell them what is going on. Don't just ship. Doing so may well jeopardize your soul more then what those priests are doing. So I make a final plea asking you to stick with the Church.

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    3. I meant to say "Don't jump ship."

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    4. No, it hasn't yet. Technically. But practically, things have changed in the years since we entered the Church. And as I said, I'm sure the Church will survive, as is my son who remains Catholic. But I never considered the Orthodox to be some heretical sect outside of the realms of salvation, even as I never considered Catholics the same way when I was Protestant. And I should also mention I don't consider Pope Francis to be the cause of problems as much as the logical result of problems a long time in the making. Had things been different, who knows? But it was, as I've said, a perfect storm and we had to act, because these things were pressing on the family, especially our boys, such that they were getting close to walking away - not despite what they heard from the Church, but increasingly because.

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    5. Then ignore everything you hear that is not out of the catechism. Don't listen. Listen to podcasts during the homily. Pray the rosary. Teach the kids yourself, no RE classes from the parish. Yes, a bit more isolated but doable. Write the bishop and tell him what you are doing and why. We have all had to suffer from such things. My first parish after conversion was horrible and now I can see heretical. Invalid matter for the Eucharist and weirdness galore. It is a wonder I stayed, but I could see beyond that and moved. Found different parishes. It's like being married. You stick it out and work to make it better. I hope you stay with us and will pray for that intention.

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    6. I suggest this link:

      https://mailchi.mp/lewistolkiensociety/newman-option?e=d8fff9e5e6

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    7. Thank you for your prayers. As I said, it wasn't easy. My one son is still in the Church, but be assured my other boys have flourished and are on their own pilgrimages. Would that the two traditions could come together. But in the meantime, again prayers are appreciated.

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  12. I beg you not to bow out the Catholic debates just because you have entered the Orthodox Church. Truth is truth. And the Roman Catholic Church is on shaky ground if it allows that the Eastern Orthodox churches retain valid sacraments but have nothing to contribute to the conversation regarding eternal truth. It was stalwart witness of Eastern Christians that defeated Arianism when the Roman Church was fairly disinterested in the debate.

    AnsonEddy

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    1. I won't. I don't want my blog to be seen as a 'nasty Catholic Church, nice Orthodox church' site. As I said, the Orthodox have snoot fulls of problems as it is. I think the big difference is that the Church, Catholic that is, feels as if it has ceded the overall Christian world view, while the Orthodox, for all their own issues, still hold solid and resist the push to acquiesce to modernity. But I will certainly point out some of the more glaring problems, especially if, taken together, they indicate what I feel was the biggest issue.

      FWIW, the priest at our church took the name Athanasius for a reason. He was former Episcopalian.

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  13. Sounds like the author never really made the move completely to Roman Catholic when he left the Protestants. I am reminded of the situation in Europe at the Congress of Vienna when Tallyrand insisted that "legitimacy" should be the guiding principle to restore peace in Europe. By that he meant restoring all the old monarchial governments. This was largely, though not completely accomplished and Europe enjoyed relative peace for almost a century. The idea was not to set some sort of perfect system of government on earth. That was quite apparent by the number of mediocre crowned heads that resulted. It was to establish a framework to accomplish the "regularization" of the continent. Similarly, those in authority in the Church and even many in the pews fall short of the Founder's intention. But it is the mechanism chosen by which we are to seek the kingdom and to follow, in faith and morals, the one chosen to lead on earth. The author would probably benefit from more careful and prayerful study of the difference between the ship of salvation and the perceived worthiness of the captain and crew at the time.

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    1. Well, we moved, but you might say it was shortly after that things fell apart. I often wonder if we had come in ten years earlier (for a variety of reasons), things might have gone differently.

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  14. I am a cradle Catholic, but I have interacted with other religious groups and have found them all lacking. My personal relationship with Christ of unconditional trust in Him is what sustains me, and gives me peace and strength. I learned of this through Scripture. The Church organization that I interact with is secondary.

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    1. I think a cradle Catholic definitely has the advantage on this. I think sometimes it's tough for a cradle Catholic to grasp the changes that happen to someone who was seriously immersed in a non-Catholic Christian tradition (esp. Protestantism) and then come into the Church. It would take time, but in that time needed, we had the myriad issues that best us and, sadly, were beginning to challenge our boys' faith, not despite the Church, but increasingly because of it. Though as I've said, our one son remains, and we pray that somehow, in some way, in the future, we are all back together again.

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    2. Go East, young man, go East...there are problems aplenty in Orthodoxy...but most are not doctrinal and the Faith once delivered is held without addition or subtraction.

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    3. That is the difference. The Orthodox are up to their noses in problems - just like all the Faith traditions being assailed by modernity. But of them all - at least outside of the Protestant fold - the Orthodox and their leadership are more stalwart when it comes to the actual doctrines of the Faith, and aren't trying to find ways to compromise as their main approach.

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  15. Hopefully you return to the Catholic Church. These are confusing times indeed and that is why we can’t desert the battlefield. Christ wants his soldiers to fight for His bride not flee. Whether it was Arianism, Iconoclasts, Church sex scandals during the St Peter Damien era, the protestant rebellion, post Vatican disasters, ect there was mass confusion in the Church like today. Its our job to fight the abuse and become saints. The gates of Hell will not prevail. God Bless!

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    1. Never give up praying. Again, it's not been easy - and that's no knock against the Orthodox. But I guess it was best said this weekend as our family discussed it all. It's not that the Church, or even Pope Francis, is changing doctrine. It's that they're making so they don't have to. They're making it so that doctrine doesn't really matter one way or another. And that was the hit. I'm sure, in ages to come, the Church will survive the storm. Unfortunately, my boys were asking all the right questions and getting all the wrong answers. Now they've rebounded, and that alone was worth the move. But prayers are appreciated. Who knows? Maybe the faithful in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions will find more common cause now and someday come back together.

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  16. If you and your family leave the True Roman Catholic Church, your salvation and of your family will not assured. Their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. You will not receiving the true sacraments. And you will not have been faithful to God. Hopefully you will come soon to the true Church.

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  17. If you and your family leave the True Roman Catholic Church, your salvation and of your family will not assured. Their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. You will not receiving the true sacraments. And you will not have been faithful to God. Hopefully you will come soon to the true Church.

    ReplyDelete
  18. If you and your family leave the True Roman Catholic Church, your salvation and of your family will not assured. Their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. You will not receiving the true sacraments. And you will not have been faithful to God. Hopefully you will come soon to the true Church.

    ReplyDelete
  19. If you and your family leave the True Roman Catholic Church, your salvation and of your family will not assured. Their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. You will not receiving the true sacraments. And you will not have been faithful to God. Hopefully you will come soon to the true Church.

    ReplyDelete
  20. If you and your family leave the True Roman Catholic Church, your salvation and of your family will not assured. Their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. You will not receiving the true sacraments. And you will not have been faithful to God. Hopefully you will come soon to the true Church.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I appreciate the concern, and prayers are certainly welcome. The five posts thing was likely a glitch. It was not easy. As one swag said, imagine the fox chewing its leg off to escape the trap. But trap it had become, owing to many things, not the least of which where the Church now is, c. 21st century. But it's a long, and complicated story. My oldest son remains in the Church, and we still support him. But again, prayers.

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  21. David, may God grant you many years in peace, health and happiness in the Orthodox Church. Salvation and peace to you and yours!

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