Wednesday, May 4, 2022

Deacon Greydanus speaks to the Roe leak

This is from his Facebook page.  Again, he banned me some years ago after suggesting my opinions about immigration are racially motivated.  That's where he was then.  Here is where he is now.  The comment was sent to me by a reader.  I was going to respond or go line by line, but I figured I would just post it and let others decide.  I know I've drawn my conclusions about what he did, and what he appears to be trying to do.

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Steven D. Greydanus

10 hrs ·

THOUGHTS ABOUT ROE V. WADE, RECENT SUPREME COURT NEWS, AND THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT

 1. I believe human life is sacred and inviolable from conception until natural death. Direct abortion is a grave injustice and a grave violation of the moral law.

 2. I believe no law permitting the wrongful taking of human life has any legal or moral validity. On the contrary, states are morally obliged to protect the lives of all members of the human family, including the unborn.

 3. In addition to having no legal or moral validity, I believe Roe v. Wade is terribly reasoned and without even nominal Constitutional validity. Roe is among the worst Supreme Court decisions of all time—along with Dred Scott (which excluded even free Black Americans from the rights of citizenship), Buck v. Bell (the 1927 pro-eugenics decision that included Oliver Wendell Holmes’ infamous opinion that "three generations of imbeciles are enough”), and Korematsu (the 1944 decision upholding the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII)—and absolutely should be overturned.

 4. I thus agree entirely with the statement of the documented drafted by Justice Samuel Alito, and leaked to Politico, that “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences.” If and when the Supreme Court overturns Roe, that will be a significant per se victory for justice, one long in coming.

 5. Supreme Court cases are decided when the opinion is issued, and there is a reason that deliberations and draft documents are confidential. Whoever leaked the document drafted by Alito, whatever their motives (I can think of possible motives in both directions), has further undermined the already damaged credibility and legitimacy of the Court.

 6. I thus agree with Chief Justice John Roberts that the leak “was a singular and egregious breach of that trust that is an affront to the Court and the community of public servants who work here,” and I hope that the investigation that Roberts has directed the marshal of the Supreme Court to launch will identify the culprit(s) and hold them responsible.

 7. The Court’s legitimacy has been damaged in part by increasing partisanship conduct in the process of confirming nominees, an issue implicating both sides.

 8. To my mind, it seems that Democrats began the politicization of the confirmation process with nominees Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas. On the other hand, the last bipartisan confirmation process was for a Republican nominee, John Roberts, and since then Republicans have been the worst offenders. In particular the blocking of Merrick Garland in President Obama’s last year in office, the rushing in of Amy Coney Barrett in President Trump’s last year in office, and, finally, the evident determination of Republican leaders to block *any* nominee of President Biden if they have the power to do so regardless of circumstances, constitutes such a profound challenge to the legitimacy of the process that it would be hard to critique any Democratic response, including packing the Court if they have the power to do so, as excessive or unwarranted.

 9. In the process of getting the Court they wanted, conservatives have been implicated in, and have largely embraced and defended, troubling evils.

 They elected and largely supported a president credibly accused of sexual assault or misconduct by over 25 women. Many women, including conservative, Christian, pro-life women, have felt betrayed and alienated by the indifference of conservatives, including pro-life conservatives, on these matters.

 The Trump administration instituted a policy of systematic family separations at the border. Thousands of infants and children were separated from parents or guardians for months or years. Parents were tricked into agreeing to self-deportation on the promise of being reunited with children who were never returned to them. Infants and children slept on concrete floors with no one to care for them but slightly older children. Detainees had inadequate access to soap, toothpaste, and sanitary pads.

 Beyond all this, immigrants who had lived here all their adult lives, for multiple decades, were wrongfully deported to countries to which they had no meaningful connection and in some cases didn’t even speak the language.

 Trump stoked racial animosity. Among many other things, he made common cause with White nationalists, told congresswomen of color to “go back where they came from,” and called neo-Nazis and White supremacists “very fine people” (do *not* start with me on this, I am not wrong and I have receipts). Many Black Americans and other people of color, including pro-life Christians, felt betrayed and alienated by the indifference and complicity of their White brethren in connection with these events.

 Trump promoted election denialism and misinformation. He tried to influence or intimidate state officials into not certifying election results. He tried to force Pence to reject the election results on January 6. He had a legal team prepared to defend this and supporters in government pushing for martial law. He helped to instigate the Capitol attack. The full consequences of all this are still unfolding.

 This is just scratching the surface. To a sigificant extent—especially insofar as conservatives continue to deny or defend on the above points—the pro-life movement is tainted with all of this.

 10. Overturning Roe, while a significant per se victory, will not of course end or outlaw abortion in the US. At most, it will leave greater power to the states. What actions will conservative states take with this new liberty?

 Troubling signs include the new Texas law, which washes the state’s hands of its own obligation to enforce the law and instead incentivizes private citizens to sue anyone they suspect of aiding or abetting in an abortion. This may lead to ugly court proceedings (e.g., an activist plaintiff hoping for a $10,000 payout hauling friends or family members into court over a D&E that might have been a second-trimester abortion or a post-miscarriage procedure).

 Conservative states tend to have high maternal and infant mortality rates. They also have higher rates of out-of-wedlock births, single mothers, and children living in poverty.

 There is nothing pro-life about any of this. Overturning Roe will be a pyrrhic victory if we lose hearts and minds, not to mention our souls, in the process.

As a final note, I'll address that last sentence. It's a fair and true sentiment, but could easily be applied to any issue: Global Warming, fighting racism, immigration reform, feeding the poor, defending women's rights, etc.  Perhaps that's the best way to understand everything he wrote above.  

32 comments:

  1. "Deacon" Greydanus loves to lay on the sanctimony, even if he has to wait a few lines before really getting into it. The man is a concern troll. He never talks about abortion without first drawing a distinction between himself (a True Pro-Lifer) and those unwashed rubes who comprise the mainstream pro-life movement. To make matters worse, I've never seen him qualify his endorsements of, say, critical race theory or the Black Lives Matter movement. He has no problem unreservedly embracing leftist dogma.

    Hell, if he had his way, Gorsuch's seat would've gone to Garland, and we wouldn't even be discussing this issue. The fact that he praises the bipartisan nature of Robert's confirmation says it all. He wants the Supreme Court to be packed with jurists who are just as spineless as he is. And the saddest part of all this is the fact that none of this will save him from the leftist mob he panders to. The progressive audience he caters to will just eat him last.

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    1. "Roberts' confirmation," not "Robert's confirmation." Oops.

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    2. Drop the scare quote nonsense. He is a deacon. Even if he offers up both-sides-ist twaddle like this

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    3. How about I continue to post whatever I want?

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    4. Spoken like a teenager.

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    5. "Come on, man."

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    6. I think what Dale was meaning is that the "" are usually used to say 'not really', when he is a deacon.

      But you're right in calling out his verbal trickery. As I said below, that's the sort of thing Mark Shea was doing a dozen years ago. Even when Mark called Obama a war criminal or the Dems the Party of Death, he would then toss out some gratuitous 'but the GOP!' for no reason at all. I remember readers calling him out on it then. It obviously didn't do any good.

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    7. How about you get called out for presuming yourself to be a judge over sacraments? God ratifies the sacrament of Holy Orders, but you think you have a veto over it? Get over yourself.

      A deacon, a priest, a bishop, or a pope may go to Hell and suffer all the more for the sacraments he has received, BECAUSE they are valid. So may a layman like you or I. Neither you nor I will be sitting on the throne and making that decision, though. There is a court higher than the comment section of a blog.

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    8. The previous post should have appeared under the previous thread. Indeed, I had clicked "reply" to that thread, but Google must know best.

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    9. Not sure who you're addressing, but then I'm no fan of this particular comments platform for that reason. It's almost impossible to respond to this or that person without specifying who exactly you mean.

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    10. I'll be a contrarian and defend Gredanus here.

      He starts off by saying what we should all agree with, and which you therefore choose to ignore.

      He is right that overturning Roe v. Wade on merely procedural grounds is only accidentally a pro-life victory. It is one thing to insist that the unborn have a right to life, even if every mortal man and woman says otherwise; it is something different to say that their right to life hangs on the whims of state governments rather than on the whims of the national government. Any Christian -- and for that matter, any Jew, Muslim, or honest pagan -- knows that there are decisions that are not permissible regardless of the opinions of the mother, the doctor, the experts, the legislatures, the courts, or even the entire public, but no such Authority is recognized in American law. THIS IS PROBABLY THE ORIGINAL SIN OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM, that it acknowledges no authority greater than itself.

      But the deacon is being lashed here for committing the "unforgivable sin" of acknowledging that the conservative political movement also has its faults, rather than worshiping it as an idol. “The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” Neither can the GOP.

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    11. "But the deacon is being lashed here for committing the "unforgivable sin" of acknowledging that the conservative political movement also has its faults, rather than worshiping it as an idol. “The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” Neither can the GOP."

      No, what the Deacon did was to water down the evil of abortion by pointing to the lesser evils of the GOP. It is reminiscent of the Rev. Cupich's response to baby dismemberment which tossed in lesser evils as worthy of equal condemnation.

      Trump is a pig and a BS artist. Some of the policies of his administration (copied by the current one, to the predictable silence of Greydanus) were awful. None of the previous two sentences is the moral equivalent of the systematic slaughter of the unborn.

      By tossing in his partisan grievances on the same moral plane, it provides reason to question the firmness of the initial parts of his multi-point mission statement.

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    12. I think the issue isn’t Deacon Greydanus suggesting the GOP has problems. It’s the point and the accuracy. If he feels he must divert from the Roe issue and the Dems’ zealous defense of abortion, his statements should 1) be pertinent to the issue at hand, and 2) be grounded in some semblance of reality. For instance, the ‘After Roberts it’s the GOP that’s been deplorable about SCOTUS’ is as far from reality as I can imagine. It’s not even close to an accurate appraisal of things. So he’s free to point out where the GOP fails on the abortion issue, since this is the issue he's looking at, but it has to be accurate, not leftwing spin of the most hilariously partisan sort.

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    13. I put "Deacon" in quotation marks because I'm a non-Catholic Christian who hates it when people (particularly members of the clergy) seek to water down the grave evil that is abortion. Either way, his designation doesn't hold much weight with me.

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  2. They elected and largely supported a president credibly accused of sexual assault or misconduct by over 25 women.

    I wonder which was the talking point mill from which he cribbed that one. I'm betting it also has some sum of Glenn Kessler's claim that Trump has lied to you 10,000x.


    Many women, including conservative, Christian, pro-life women, have felt betrayed and alienated by the indifference of conservatives, including pro-life conservatives, on these matters

    An irreducible share of self-identified Republicans are dissatisfied with the incumbent Republican President. All six Republicans who have occupied the office in the last 50-odd years have faced this. For Presidents Nixon, Reagan, Bush the Younger, and Trump, the share tended to be around 9% of all self-identified Republicans. For Presidents Ford and Bush the Elder, it tended to be around 23%. No particular reason to think that 'pro-life women' were disproportionately to be found in that 9%. (Mona Charen shouldn't let the door hit her tuchus on her way out).

    Yes, I did notice that point 9 was a witless distraction that only a partisan Democrat would have offered.


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    1. Much of what he says appears to come from recycled MSNBC fodder. Just his assertion that after Roberts, it's been the Republicans who are the villains in SCOTUS nominations. Really? Based on what standard? I can't recall a Dem nominee being accused of heading some international sex slave trade. Yet I can recall that being done to a Rep nominee.

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    2. From 1913 to the Present, the following Democratic nominees to the court have be met with some vigorous resistance by the Republican caucus in the Senate:

      1. Louis Brandeis
      2. Hugo Black
      3. Sherman Minton
      4. Abe Fortas / Homer Thornberry
      5. Sonia Sotomayor
      6. Elena Kagan
      7. Merrick Garland

      A. Note, in 1993 / 94, Robert Dole and the Republican caucus in the Senate made a peace offering to the Democrats by standing down when Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer were nominated. The response to that offering was that in 2005 and 2006, 50% of the Democratic caucus voted against John Roberts and 90% voted against Samuel Alito. Keep in mind that the only Democratic nominees which received that degree of resistance from Republicans were Louis Brandeis and the Fortas / Thornberry ticket. The response to Sotomayor, Kagan, and Garland was in keeping with the Democratic caucus preferred modus operandi.

      B. The Fortas / Thornberry nomination was a scheme dreamed up by Earl Warren and Lyndon Johnson in 1968 to allow Warren to retire and tee-up a congenial successor. Warren did something of dubious validity issuing a contingent letter of resignation. I leave when someone is confirmed to succeed me. So, Johnson picks Fortas, a Democratic Party consigliere who had been placed on the court three years earlier (with the Republican Senate caucus rolling over), with Thornberry to replace him as associate justice. Aside from the procedural legerdemain, there was now a critical mass in the Senate infuriated with the conduct of the Warren Court. There were also some subterranean discontents about ethical issues. The adversaries of Fortas on both sides of the aisle were sufficient to filibuster and (had it come to that) sufficient to prevail on a floor vote. The country dodged a bullet, as sketchy behavior by Fortas and his lawyer-wife came to light the following year. Fortas resigned from the court, by many accounts in an under-the-table deal which allowed his wife to be excused from disbarment and criminal prosecution. Earl Warren gave up and resigned the following year.

      C. About 1/4 of the Republican caucus objected to the nomination of Minton. The New York Times editorialized against it, complaining that Pres. Truman was stacking the court with his cronies.

      D. About 40% of the Republican residue in the Senate voted against Hugo Black. Black was a member of Congress and avid proponent of the New Deal at a time when the constitutionality of much New Deal legislation was contested and nominated on the heels of FDR's failed court-packing plan. His judicial experience consisted of a couple of years as a small town justice of the peace.

      E. About 85% of the Senate Republican caucus voted against Brandeis. He was innocent of judicial experience and he had been immersed in political battles which made their way into court. Imagine if a Republican president nominated Larry Klayman or John Whitehead and you get the idea.


      Note that in that time Democrats have managed to defeat four Republican nominees in floor votes; a fifth felt compelled to withdraw in embarrassment when his toking came to light; two others were subject to hideous defamation campaigns; and two others had their motives and character impugned in a way no Democratic nominee has had other than Fortas.

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  3. Conservative states tend to have high maternal and infant mortality rates. They also have higher rates of out-of-wedlock births, single mothers, and children living in poverty.

    What he's not telling you is that there are only four states where the infant mortality rate exceeds 1.33x the national mean. Infant mortality is infrequent (about 5.5 per 1,000 births) and does not vary much from state to state. The four states which have the highest infant mortality rates are all conservative. One of them has a very dispersed population with large numbers of people distant from sophisticated medical services. Three of them have a proportionately large population of non-hispanic blacks, among whom the infant mortality rate is 2x the national mean, 2.2x the rate for hispanics, and and 2.3x the rate for non-hispanic whites.

    There is nothing pro-life about any of this. Overturning Roe will be a pyrrhic victory if we lose hearts and minds, not to mention our souls, in the process.

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    1. There is nothing pro-life about any of this. Overturning Roe will be a pyrrhic victory if we lose hearts and minds, not to mention our souls, in the process.

      He's begging for people at his home parish to start calling him Captain Smarmy

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  4. If the Deacon had been in charge of the civil rights movement in the 1960s, Jim Crow would still be a growing concern.

    The battery of civil rights laws was a mass imposition of legal restrictions imposed on an unwilling populace via a movement whose most visible leader had miserable sexual proclivities, as the FBI wiretaps conclusively demonstrate.

    Nevertheless, I will take that over American apartheid and the blood of innocents shed to keep flatly-racist regimes in power.

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    1. I've seen this several times, that somehow the polls finding the majority of Americans want RvW, therefore we must keep it. What does that even mean? At what other point in history have Catholic said if the majority of a nation wants legalized evil, then we must keep the evil? Arguments like that always make me itch.

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  5. I find stuff like this more disgusting than Mark Shea's unhinged rants. At least Shea has the excuse of being controlled by his emotions and being ignorant of the issues (even if his ignorance is largely his own fault.)

    In contrast SDG lays down the truths that 1.) Roe v. Wade is both immoral and bad law, 2.) the current opinion to overturn it is well argued, 3.) the leak of this opinion before the ruling has been made is evil and 4.) claims that the court is "too political" ring hollow when the democrats have politicized it for decades.

    And then once he has established all that he proceeds to go on a long rant about how a Republican court doing something that he agrees with is really a sign that Republicans are evil, and that if the pro-life movement endorses an actual and justified legal victory they are evil due to contamination by the unclean Republicans.

    It is utterly ridiculous and only something that SDG would say because he is unable to even give the appearance of praising Republicans (or really, even allowing an opportunity to criticize them pass by.) By laying out the initial points he does not make himself appear more reasonable. He only establishes that he knows what is true, but that he is willing to ignore it for political points.

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    1. The problem I see is that folks like Deacon Greydanus or Dawn Eden are more and more sounding like Mark did a dozen years ago. I remember Mark catching flak for that trick of 'Yes, the Dems are the party of Murder - but the GOP is evil over there!' At the same time Mark began finding cases of Dems doing good, using it to cast praise on all Dems, and then ignoring when the GOP did anything praiseworthy. Even if he praised something the GOP did, he was careful to avoid mentioning it was the GOP that did it. That sort of naked partisanship - which Mark zealously denied - was an early sign post of where he was going. Now I'm seeing those two in particular going where Mark went all those years ago, and using the same tricks along the way. Hence Deacon Greydanus's 'Roe was bad, this is Good - but Trump and the GOP are really evil!' spin. Something I can't see him diong a half dozen years ago.

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    2. I hope you are wrong about Eden and the Deacon, but I am greatly afraid you are right. It won't hurt as much personally as it did with Mark. Nevertheless, may God stop such from happening.

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  6. How did I miss this?

    "and called neo-Nazis and White supremacists “very fine people” (do *not* start with me on this, I am not wrong and I have receipts)."

    It would do him well if he checked his receipts. Even USA Today pointed out the position the Rev. Greydanus stubbornly holds is contrary to fact. Loathing the Orange Man and his faults doesn't make falsehood true.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/17/fact-check-trump-quote-very-fine-people-charlottesville/5943239002/

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    1. Yeah, I saw that. It's bad enough that he continues something that has been shown to be false. It's that those who embraced it could at least lean on the 'only racists would object to toppling a Confederate Statue' spin. Back then. When Trump warned such tactics were only the beginning and everyone laughed at him. Now that we don't go a month without anything from the past being removed, banned, moved, torn down or destroyed, that assumption becomes more difficult to maintain. Unless he believes anyone objecting to the destruction of our whole history is racist, he's going to have to rethink his claim.

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  7. Yeah, Deacon Greydanus's sanctimonious piffle is infuriating. But it pales beside Mark Shea's absolutely unhinged response to the Roe leak. Yikes.

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    1. Someone sent me a link to Mark's response on his blog. It was standard pro-abort reasoning with the falsehood that the Church doesn't speak to the morality of particular laws. I've seen nothing else he has written, and the sun shines all the brighter for it.

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  8. " On the other hand, the last bipartisan confirmation process was for a Republican nominee, John Roberts"

    Sotomoyer was confirmed 68-31. Kagan was confirmed with 63 votes. While the vote for KBJ was much narrower, it paled in comparison to the partisan rancor of the Kavanaugh show trial. I mean, he can't even get basic facts straight. (And Roberts, while confirmed with 78 votes, still faced opposition).

    Everything after that point was just rubbish.

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    1. There were many factual falsehoods in his post, but that was among the worst. It's literally revisionism of the 'five fingers not four' level. Yet that's what so many who align with the Left appear to do - out of necessity.

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  9. Even granting the good deacon's best intentions, he seems quite unable to acknowledge that there is something about the democrat DNA that fosters a toleration, yea even the propagation, of unethical and immoral behavior. It started with the Jefferson/Adams election of 1800, ran to Jackson's murderous treatment of Native Americans, promotion of slavery, the Klan, segregation, abortion etc. Throwing in the alleged shortcomings of Republicans most clearly brings to mind the comparison of a speck vs. a beam in the eye. The dems may have had a few members of principle (JFK comes to mind) who attempted change but as an institution, they clearly serve the minions of darkness and always revert to type. Hence, the current manifestations on the subject of abortion.

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    1. It's been argued that the Democrats are at their best when they're protecting us from those other Americans over there. But I fear for the Deacon he's merely following in the footsteps of others. This is merely one signpost along the trail: No matter what the Dems do wrong make sure you point to something the GOP does wrong and make it sound worse. Even if it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Mark Shea was there c. 2010. He had no problem calling Dems the party of death or Obama a war criminal - but he would always, and I mean always, drop something about the GOP whether it applied or not. What was most notable, however, was when Mark addressed problems with the GOP he did not do the same the other way. I notice Deacon Greydanus, or Dawn Eden, now going along the same path.

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