I can't account for the Lutheran perspective, and don't know if it's well represented by the fellow in question. I do know that it isn't entirely along the lines of a Catholic view, but then I also felt Simcha's was a bit off as well, focusing on the here and now more than the there and then, which also seems to fall short of the Catholic view.
Ok, I'm going to limit myself to... say 5 results each in rebutting.
ERROR #1: The world is evil This is gnosticism. In Genesis, it says, “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." -John 15:19 NIV
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." -Ephesians 2:1-2 NIV
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." -Ephesians 6:12 NIV
"You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." -James 4:4 NIV
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world." -1 John 2:15-16 NIV
ERROR #2: Everyone who calls himself “Christian” goes straight to Heaven We certainly pray and hope that this is what happened. But we cannot assume that every human who finds himself inside a church is automatically heaven bound.
This isn't so much biblical (other than the verse, "who are you to judge your master's servant?") as just dickish. Especially since I know I've seen Catholics (especially her good friend Shea - and Simcha has probably done this too, I dunno, I don't read her) say that we can't critique anybody's possible state of salvation. How many times have these people complained about other christians judging the state of those in the pews? WHICH IS WHAT THIS GUY AVOIDED! Do we KNOW the people shot down were saved? No. But if it's not a good idea to go judging your neighbors while in the pews, then it's ESPECIALLY not good to go judging your neighbors when they're shot dead in the pews. So out of decorum, the guy assumes they were all good faithful and let God sort it out BECAUSE IT'S POLITE.
ERROR #3, and the worst: Evil has a place in God’s will Pastor Fiene comes very close to saying that God wills evil.
Oh wait a second... Simcha says: "God allows evil to happen, because He has given us actual free will." Guy she's rebutting says: "Sometimes, his will is done by allowing temporal evil..."
*HEADDESK* SHE JUST SAYS WHAT HE DID! Anyway, from the Bible:
"They forsook the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They aroused the Lord’s anger because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths. In his anger against Israel the Lord gave them into the hands of raiders who plundered them. He sold them into the hands of their enemies all around, whom they were no longer able to resist." -Judges 2:12-14 NIV
"The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim, to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years." -Judges 3:8 NIV
Heck, should I just keep reciting Judges for all the examples of God ALLOWING evil to happen?
Hence my question of whether Simcha has actually read the Bible. Though now I see she hasn't even read the original article since at one point SHE SAID THE SAME THING THE GUY DID while trying to contradict him.
That's a level of stupidity I need to invent a term for.
Has... has simcha actually READ the Bible?
ReplyDeleteI can't account for the Lutheran perspective, and don't know if it's well represented by the fellow in question. I do know that it isn't entirely along the lines of a Catholic view, but then I also felt Simcha's was a bit off as well, focusing on the here and now more than the there and then, which also seems to fall short of the Catholic view.
ReplyDeleteOk, I'm going to limit myself to... say 5 results each in rebutting.
ReplyDeleteERROR #1: The world is evil
This is gnosticism. In Genesis, it says, “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." -John 15:19 NIV
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." -Ephesians 2:1-2 NIV
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." -Ephesians 6:12 NIV
"You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." -James 4:4 NIV
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world." -1 John 2:15-16 NIV
ERROR #2: Everyone who calls himself “Christian” goes straight to Heaven
We certainly pray and hope that this is what happened. But we cannot assume that every human who finds himself inside a church is automatically heaven bound.
This isn't so much biblical (other than the verse, "who are you to judge your master's servant?") as just dickish. Especially since I know I've seen Catholics (especially her good friend Shea - and Simcha has probably done this too, I dunno, I don't read her) say that we can't critique anybody's possible state of salvation. How many times have these people complained about other christians judging the state of those in the pews? WHICH IS WHAT THIS GUY AVOIDED! Do we KNOW the people shot down were saved? No. But if it's not a good idea to go judging your neighbors while in the pews, then it's ESPECIALLY not good to go judging your neighbors when they're shot dead in the pews. So out of decorum, the guy assumes they were all good faithful and let God sort it out BECAUSE IT'S POLITE.
ERROR #3, and the worst: Evil has a place in God’s will
Pastor Fiene comes very close to saying that God wills evil.
Oh wait a second...
Simcha says: "God allows evil to happen, because He has given us actual free will."
Guy she's rebutting says: "Sometimes, his will is done by allowing temporal evil..."
*HEADDESK* SHE JUST SAYS WHAT HE DID! Anyway, from the Bible:
"They forsook the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They aroused the Lord’s anger because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths. In his anger against Israel the Lord gave them into the hands of raiders who plundered them. He sold them into the hands of their enemies all around, whom they were no longer able to resist." -Judges 2:12-14 NIV
"The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim, to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years." -Judges 3:8 NIV
Heck, should I just keep reciting Judges for all the examples of God ALLOWING evil to happen?
Hence my question of whether Simcha has actually read the Bible. Though now I see she hasn't even read the original article since at one point SHE SAID THE SAME THING THE GUY DID while trying to contradict him.
That's a level of stupidity I need to invent a term for.