Obedience to the Political Left. Woof:
Are we sure all ICE agents are psycho fascist murderous thugs? And then, does that mean we're allowed to crow over the suffering of such vile criminals and even their loved ones who might be impacted? I mean, that doesn't strike me as that portrayal of good old liberal kindness I grew up with, Christian or otherwise. I remember when not a few Catholic apologists railed against those who cheered the death of Osama bin Laden, reminding us that real Christians never gloat over the suffering of others, even our enemies. Or did that just mean gloating over the death of people who orchestrate the slaughter of thousands of Americans?
Yet here, from that bastion of Christian charity, we also have similar:
It's a shame because it could harm them, or their families or loved ones. At least those in ICE who aren't gestapo murderers. But again, this is the modern Left, which has done yeoman's work reducing everything to a bumper sticker; of eliminating the idea that problems could be vast and complex and instead distilling reality down to Group A v. Group B. The Left that has done wonders by convincing so many, including our leadership and even Christian institutions, that there is no human race, only intersecting demographic groups through which all worth and culpability are measured.
BTW, doxxing. I had to ask my sons some years ago. It means finding personal information about someone and then plastering it online. Usually with the hope that some harm comes to them or theirs as a result. So when one of his readers, expressing the same concern about ICE, was nonetheless concerned about Mark's vengeful tone, his response was thus:
Eeek.
Which reminds me of Mike Lewis and his post trying to score political points in God's name when Mel Gibson's home was consumed by the LA fires.
Now, I don't know about you, but there are plenty people out there I don't care for owing to their politics or other belief systems and behaviors. But I would never gloat over harm done to them, even disguising it as some prophetic utterance. And that isn't from being Christian, but merely how I was taught growing up, both by my parents and society at large.
Not all of it has to be a flagrant disregard for the wellbeing of those who dare dissent from the Leftist State of course. Some can be the opposite, glorifying those who the Left/Press has beautified as the type of people Jesus tried to be. For that, here is an example from Dawn Eden, reminding us that Ana Narvo is most likely correct, Alex Pretti was the most perfect guy.
Thus only one side of the tragedy need ever be accepted.
And for a bonus, when anti-ICE activists broke into a church to disrupt worship services, I assumed it would be one of those embarrassments that most on the Left would try to sweep under the rug. And for the most part I was right. For the Left Media, the arrest of Don Lemon became the focus. Sort of like the press focusing on free speech when people were fired for wanting more Charlie Kirk killings as opposed to focusing on the the implication of those wanting the killing of Charlie Kirk.
But kudos to Mark, who rushes in to mock those in the church who say they were upset, or their children frightened, when their worship service was so intruded upon. Cosplaying martyrdom he called it. I guess freedom to worship unhindered comes with the caveat that this freedom is contingent not on what one feels about Jesus or God, but whether one conforms to the political Left and its narratives or not. Or, more shockingly, on whether or not the Left and its corporate instruments deem you worthy of such rights.
As I've said before, none of this is to say there is nothing wrong with how President Trump has tried to correct the border crisis. Or would I suggest that in an operation so vast, bad things could never happen, even to innocent people. And we don't need to point out every anti-ICE advocate's refusal to even acknowledge that some detainees have been violent criminals and many thousands of Americans have been harmed or even killed as a result of illegal immigration. We won't discuss the Left's ability, courtesy of a sympathetic media, to dehumanize those who get in the way.
No. All of this is to ask the question - what the hell went wrong with the great Protestant Converts to Catholicism movement of yore? I mean, to varying degrees, none of these individuals were so immersed in the leftwing tank. Not that they were all a bunch of radical right-wingers. But I can distinctly recall some absolutely attacking the very things we're seeing: Condemning everyone in a group, wishing harm to those in opposing groups, and of course anyone treading on Christian praxis in the name politics. Because Catholicism don't you know. That great fulfillment of the Faith that set the abuses of Protestantism and our modern secular state aright. Yet there it is. They are far more glued to the full secular leftwing movement than any religious right Christian ever was to the political right back in the day.
I won't give my ideas about what happened, since I don't know for sure. I was in a discussion with someone else about those high profile converts to Catholicism who have plunged into the vat of the secular leftwing movement. What he said isn't too far from the likelihood, but I'd be curious if there are any other insights. I realize that this is a small portion of Catholicism, but it isn't a small portion of the Catholic Convert Culture that was so prominent back in the day, but today looks barely different from an average MSNBC broadcast. At least in these cases.
BTW, it should be noted that in all of the rejoicing over potential suffering of the ICE agents and anyone to do with them, none of it has anything to do with even acknowledging the thousands of Americans victimized by illegal immigration. As we've seen from even much of the Church's leadership, many have embraced the leftwing media's dictum that it's not if we should care about the suffering and death of the innocent, but when. And that is answered as only as long as it can be exploited, and not a minute more. Chilling, if you think about it. But you can hardly blame those here, when most in our leadership, including Christian leadership, apparently approves this message.
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| I hope there was a reason he couldn't attend, just like I lamented those who were forbidden to attend weddings and funerals during Covid. I wonder if Mr. Greydanus was as indignant then. |
(Tom New Poster)
ReplyDeleteThe Ban-Shea has gone from cranky to nasty to "flipping bonkers". This is the talk you might expect from Londoners in the 1940s after the Luftwaffe flattened their homes, only none of that happened here. This is feedback shriek that you get when the mike is too close to the speaker. This guy needs air!
And yet, in fairness, it's not just Shea. Perhaps he's the most vitriolic, but Greydanus is a high profile deacon of the Catholic Church. Shea is, at the end, a layperson. But Greydanus, who has the ear of many in and out of the Church, has no problem gloating over the suffering if ICE agents in general, since I guess they're all just murderous thugs. Even if it might harm their families or children, it doesn't seem to cut any ice with him. That was what I wondered. These are all Catholic converts from outside Catholicism. How have they become the worst examples of secular leftwing activism and radicalism?
DeleteTom, that's not even his angriest post about them.
Delete(Tom New Poster)
DeleteCould it be that these people converted out of disgust with the falling away of traditional Protestantism from obedience to the Commandments, and that they still look at Christ in a semi-Calvinist way as God's Divine Enforcer, which is only one aspect of Our Lord, Who is about not justice alone, but mercy? Christ intends the salvation of all (even ICE agents), although some will reject it, and so we must regard even those we disagree with, even those we might (personally) feel have put themselves beyond God's pale. The Catholic attitude results in humility (and a hesitancy to judge persons) that Calvinism lacks.
Of course, as a cradle Catholic, I can't see the bottom of this as well as some others.
Tom, you articulated something I've been musing over myself: the role theological foundations play in this. I have an acquaintance who has been veering leftward since you can probably 2020. He comes from an anabaptist/evangelical background, and he and his wife are clearly moving faith wise as well. Not deconstructing it, but migrating to churches that kind of give a spiritual affirmation of what they seem to want to believe anyway. Just my opinion. Anyway, he shared a long post from about how when he was growing up he was taught that there were "good" people to be around and "bad" people to avoid, but when he got older he saw the "good" youth minister caught abusing kids, and "bad" (Marxists/Muslims as example) people caring sincerely for others. The conclusion the post-er came to, which my acquaintance concurred, was that he should have radical openness to others without prejudice. I commented something to the effect of also not being naive about human nature, as I couldn't figure out a way to nicely say it seemed he held his same fundamental viewpoint, but had just swapped around the "good" and "bad" people. Illegal immigrants: good. MAGA/ICE: bad.
DeleteThe flaw in Shea's comment is easy to see as soon as you change out the subject:
ReplyDelete"Illegal immigrants are masked, unidentified members of a terrorist organization that observes no law as they beat, kidnap, rape, and murder innocent people. [snip] Enough with Tone Policing their victims and trying to shame people for speaking out."
Oh wait... he loves to tone police and shame victims of immigrants for speaking out.
And of course whatever excuse one might use to counter the above, would apply just as much to countering his claims.
What's even funnier is the recent fight Mark had with a person commenting with Mark replying "you object to the good because it isn't perfect" (or something to that extent), yet all of his and SDG's complaints about law enforcement in the country is apparently... that it's not perfect. So it has to stop.
How in the world these people got any reputation as any kind of authority or moral voice shows just has low modern standards have gotten.
I think one of the casualties of modern partisanship is consistency. There is none. I almost never visit Shea anymore. But over at Greydanus, there is nothing consistent other than conforming to the Left. Those who do can launch with personal attacks, false accusations or anything they want. Those who don't, even if they appeal to Church teaching, are railed against and sometimes even threatened with being banned or deleted. I'd say if that's how they operate on personal interaction levels, at least online, I wouldn't be shocked that they approach almost anything with that sort of 'fine for me but not for thee' approach to applying standards. Though in fairness Nate, they weren't like this twenty years ago when they established their reputations.
DeleteYou know, I had actually kinda forgotten Shea existed until that post. Basic charity prevents me from saying anything else, because so many thoughts are going through my brain.
ReplyDeleteI agree that SGD is worse in many ways because he is a deacon. That said, Shea is a Catholic apologist, and his words are leading sheep astray in two directions - towards an incorrect understanding of Catholic theology, or away from the Church because if this guy is supposed to represent what Catholicism is about, why do I need to be with those people?
Oh, I've said I hope SGD embraces that duel persona of the Internet Age. I'd hate to think that's how he approaches his parish. I certainly wouldn't stay there if he did. As there is little to suggest on his FB page that Catholicism is nothing other than a fine way for Catholics to durp about, but what really matters is fealty to the political Left. Again, a far, far cry from where he was when I first encountered him decades ago. As for Mark, there's not much left.
DeleteI am interested to know in your friend's theory on why so many converts have gone off the leftist deep end. I kind of have to believe on some level the feel the need to be "respectable" in the eyes of the world and boy, a certain candidate just didn't fit that bill, and it broke their minds. (Seriously, I have no idea why anyone would give one man so much power over their way of thinking...and it's definitely NOT the people they accuse of doing so, but I digress...) One thing I will give them is that if they think something is true, they go ALL IN.
ReplyDeleteAs a total side note, Dave, have you seen the book "Shepherds for Sale" by Megan Basham? I'd be interested in your take on it, premise or actual book.
I think the thing I keep imagining, as I watch Father James Martin celebrated by MSM and various pop culture outlets, is that how Christian would I feel if my main support and admiration came from the Roman Forum, the Circus and the Senate. That people like the ones above are completely embraced by forces antithetical and even hostile to the Faith is telling. And that thinking goes all the way to the top of the Church. Not a new problem, but obviously not a problem we've gotten over.
DeleteBy the way, I've seen that book brought up several times recently. I don't know if it is new, or has been around. But it's been talked about enough I'll probably get it in the not too distant future.
Some thoughts:
ReplyDelete1) You don't have to be a hardcore woke leftie to see that there are problems going on with the ICE operations in Minnesota. With the hiring boom, they're taking in all kinds of new hires, conducting no background checks, disregarding criminal records, giving these guys guns and blanket immunity to go out and rough people up, with minimal training. There are enough veteran ICE and CBP officials lamenting the steep decline in professionalism in these organizations that this should be worrying to anyone who cares about law and order.
2) ICE and CBP agents are not trained in urban policing, shame on the administration for putting them into a situation they were not trained to handle.
3) At the end of the day, this is less about immigration enforcement than it is about theatrics and making statements. If the president were serious about immigration, he would have pushed for mandatory E-Verify. And the job of searching out illegal immigrants can more easily and efficiently be done by trained officials in shirt and tie, doing the unsexy work that doesn't make the front page.
4) If there's a Blue Wave in November, Stephen Miller and his heavy-handed immigration theatrics will have a significant part to play in it. This is doing nothing to fight the woke mind virus, it's turning people against the president.
5) If there's anything to be said in defense of Shea et al, they're reacting to faction of modern conservatism that seems to rejoice in brutality.
Here's Megyn Kelly, another Catholic, on the naval operations in the Caribbean: ""So I really do kind of not only want to see them killed in the water, whether they're on the boat or in the water, but I'd really like to see them suffer. I would like Trump and Hegseth to make it last a long time so that they lose a limb and bleed out a little."
Someone please tell me how this reflects a serious mind who takes her faith and the Church's social teachings seriously.
We have a Catholic vice president who plays footsie with self-proclaimed national socialists, who knowingly lies about what immigrant communities are doing in America, and does all this as a supposedly serious man of faith.
We have Matt Walsh and Candace Owens so consumed with fear and loathing for their enemies that the only signs they're Catholic is the cross on Owens' desk. Shea et al aren't the only converts to have traded in the faith for a mess of pottage. Between the Shea and Walsh wings of the Church, I feel more informed going to secular commentators if I want to get an accurate read on things.
Responding thoughts:
Delete1. No one said anything about not criticizing ICE or its tactics. This post is about the blanket assumptions/denunciations of entire groups of people without nuance or, quite frankly, charity by those who primarily are now "professional Catholics."
2. Same thought^^
3. Interesting point, but not directly relevant to above post.
4. Same thought ^^
5. No. Those who have gone leftward are not reacting to a "modern conservatism that seems to rejoice in brutality. " They are reacting to the bewildering (to them) rise of Trump and anyone who supports him as Commander in Chief. The difference between the above mentioned Catholic converts and the Catholics you mention is that the first set are primarily known and platformed AS Catholics specifically. The others are podcasters, journalists, and politicians who happen to be Catholic. No one goes to Megyn Kelly for theological opinions, but she doesn't hold herself up as a religious mouthpiece either.
Charlemagne; As I and Anon. said, I’m using this to ask what went wrong with the vaunted Protestant Converts to Catholicism movement, as shown here. I chose these because I know not a few I mention here, as well as others, had chastised people back in the day for doing things like crowing over the misfortune of those they opposed, or even celebrating the death of bin Laden. Mark Shea alone posted several rants against those who celebrated his death, appealing to the Church’s teachings on the dignity of all persons. So it’s odd to see them rejoice and be glad that ICE agents may be getting screwed over, even if it includes their ICE women and ICE children. That’s what I’m meaning. In fairness, I don’t remember anyone wishing bin Laden’s family was harmed – just glad he was. Which was brutally condemned. Now look at them. For me, one of things I watch for is people who say X is a vile and contemptable sin … who later do X with great zeal. Especially if the shift corresponds with a shift in ideological leaning. For instance, was a time when they would ban anyone for launching personal attacks or false accusations on their pages. Now, those things occur on at least Greydanus’s and Shea’s pages with impunity – as long as the ones doing it tack left of center. Some of their readers aren’t even Christian, are strongly anti-Christian, and promote endless sins from the Church’s perspective while not infrequently rejecting or even attacking the Faith. Yet as long as they are to the Left, they can attack, name call, falsely accuse others (primarily not to the Left, even if they are Christian) until the cows come home. Which is part of the bigger problem – that there is virtually nothing I see from these Professional Catholics that suggests becoming Catholic had any intrinsic value to it if not also accompanied by complete immersion into leftwing activism. A radical change from where they were twenty years ago. So why?
DeleteAs for the ICE situation, I only hope you’re not suggesting I should take the media’s narrative at face value, that there was a time when ICE were angels and all was well – but Trump and now they’re fascists wanting to brutalize innocent immigrants. My credulity meter doesn’t go that deep.
As a vet, I can agree with Shea that we shouldn't be rejoicing over the death of an enemy; it was something that needed to be done, and we can be glad that it was done, without taking pleasure in the death of a human being. As John Donne said,
DeleteNo man is an island,
Entire of itself;
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
Now, that's as far as I'm able to meet Shea; I have to wonder why Shea and his ilk are the only things making you upset. What's the difference between Shea and Matt Walsh? Both engage in rhetorical violence against some mythical other, both put reason aside for fear, glands and vibes, and both refuse to call out bullshit on their own side, Shea embracing communists, Walsh real world national socialists.
Why is this happening? Maybe Richard Dawkins was right and religion effs things up big time.
It should be possible to disapprove of Shea's attitude towards ICE family members, while also disapproving of the agents' lack of professionalism, and Trump's general disregard for the constitutional limits of his office, and the rule of law.
The establishment media are hardly the only ones calling out the lack of professionalism amongst today's ICE agents.
https://thedispatch.com/article/homeland-security-homan-targeted-enforcement-minneapolis/
https://thedispatch.com/article/patel-noem-presentation-gear-performance-social-media/
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/minneapolis-ice-shooting-legality-trump/
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/trump-retreat-minneapolis-border-ice-bovino-noem/
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/alex-pretti-shooting-minneapolis-trump-noem-bovino/
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/wanderland/ice-shooting-minnesota-cosplay-professionalism/
(Sadly, most of these are paywalled, but I think you do get three free articles per month).
To be honest, I don’t know much about Matt Walsh. I’m aware of him, and sometimes people send me links. I’ve commented on his FB page a couple times, about half of the time to argue with him. Nonetheless, generally he’s not my cup of tea. But here is the galaxy size difference: As far as I know, he presents himself as a conservative Catholic speaking as a conservative on social issues. He doesn’t present himself as 1) A professional published Catholic apologist (Shea), 2) an ordained Deacon of the Catholic Church (Greydanus), 3) a canon lawyer of the Catholic Church (Eden), or a Catholic Contributor to a website dedicated to teaching and unpacking the Catholic Faith (Lewis). Many of those mentioned above have, over the years, appealed to the ‘to those who are given much’ principle to explain their crushing condemnation of such things as the West, the US, America, Christians (and in the day, even conservatives). So, right back at them. If they want to flaunt their Catholic credentials as official and professional representatives of the Catholic Church, I hold them to those same higher standards. Plus, I want to know why they have so radically changed and become so much of what they once rejected. And why so many converts?
DeleteAs for ICE, again I’m not buying the spin that ICE used to be filled with the angels, but now Trump came along and so they’re demons. It’s far more complex than a select list of resources unpacking only one side of the issue suggests. But once more, that’s not what this is about. This is about those professional Catholics, converts all, waving their Catholic credentials as professional Catholics who then behave and advocate in ways they once loudly condemned; doing so to attack values and beliefs they once upheld; and embracing ideologies and agendas they once opposed. Which is demonstrated by them cheering the suffering of those they oppose, and wishing them and theirs whatever harm or suffering comes their way – something more than one condemned in the day. And as Lewis demonstrates, it's not just confined to ICE.
What is it about democracy that is so objectionable to Shea & Greydanus? ICE is carrying out the policies for which the voters voted.
ReplyDeleteI am married to an immigrant and the sponser of two others. One waited almost ten years for his visa. So, yeah, queue jumpers really chap my hide.
As for the Tarabishis, well, getting arrested and jailed for violating the law may very well interfere with your family events.
1) Democracy simply means that the majority votes for the laws; it does not mean that the laws passed or policies pursued are just, smart, or even that they'll serve the common good.
DeleteThere are many state laws that allow for abortion with little to no restrictions. If you take part in the national or a state-level March for Life, does that mean you're opposed to democracy, or that you think said law is unjust?
2) Voters can have buyers remorse; they say about 13% of Hispanics who voted for Trump are now saying they regret their vote. I can't tell you how many people I've met who wish they had voted for Bush in 1992.
3) It's possible to carry out the voter's will on stronger immigration enforcement without the theatrics and brutality going down in Minneapolis. The Obama administration was famous for the vigor with which it pursued deportations, but you never saw it on the news because he did it quietly, which should go to show that all of what's going on in Minneapolis is right wing kayfabe, not serious law enforcement.
4) The will of the voters may change, especially on immigration; people want immigration laws enforced, they don't necessarily want armed paramilitaries on the streets and Green Card holders getting arrested and deported without due process. There's a strong chance this could hurt Trump come November.
From what I’ve read my Latino compatriots are even more ‘xenophobic’ than I.
DeleteIt is their neighborhoods which get filled up with the criminals. It is their jobs which are subverted.
Sharing a language and a culture does NOT make one an automatic ally. As an example I give you Pinochet. Still very popular in Chile.
To show how disingenuous Charlemagne is being, he compares Trump to Obama on deportations as proof Trump is doing something wrong, but doesn't bother to compare Minneapolis to cities all over the country where ICE is operating without incident as evidence Minneapolis is doing something wrong.
DeleteAnd it's pretty much why I've stopped listening to anybody who links the dispatch. Because apparently the rule for "conservatives" now is that we can't take any actions if the Left cries hard enough about it. So we may as well just surrender in all regards since they are very quickly learning that they can then cry about everything to get their way.
It's also disingenuous to compare Obama to Trump on this as Obama could do no wrong in the eyes of the media and had the full support of the MSM on his side. They are 100% antagonistic towards Trump, his policies, and execution of said policies. They couldn't even be honest about the putting kids in cages thing which they blamed Trump for, but the pics were from Obama's time.
DeleteShea has EVIDENCE that any member of ICE raped anyone?
ReplyDeleteI think they've embraced the post-Kavanaugh Left. Remember, during the Kavanaugh hearings we were schooled on how we need to get over our obsessions about guilt or innocence, burden of proof or even presumption of innocence. Those are fine for dusty old courtrooms. But in the court of pubic opinion? It's enough that people challenge the Left. Just as Deacon Greydanus blasted critics of that Bad Bunny singer - framing it against Jim Crow era segregation, and those critics as xenophobic racists. Which is odd, because of all the criticisms I heard, I had no idea he wasn't white. The issue never came up. But that's what the good deacon saw, and with no more evidence than you've seen here, he plowed forth with accusations blazing.
DeleteHere's his post on the "evidence."
Deletehttps://markpshea.com/2026/02/04/a-reason-to-be-proud-of-the-resistance/
I generate the same level of charitable compassion for people like Shea as I do for people like Trotsky. Brilliant writers and utterly wrong.
ReplyDelete